The Washington County Commissioners approved the funding to improve the field conditions in Hagerstown.
The $35,500 project is expected to be split between the county, the City of Hagerstown, the Washington Nationals, the Hagerstown Suns, and the Hagerstown-Washington County Convention and Visitors Bureau.
Check out Capitol Punishment for a look at Hagerstown defensively.
Louis J. | 24-Oct-07 at 11:12 am | Permalink
Brian
Why don’t the Nationals own and operate some of their minor league teams. This would eliminate some of these “local” problems. A number of teams in the Appalachian League, The Rome Braves in Sally League and Tampa Yankees in the Florida State League are owned and operated by their respective ML team. If these teams make a profit and if a team is going to invest millions of $$$ for players and their development, why not control the stadium, field conditions and admin functions. In addition, what a great way to use your farm system to train & develop administrative, marketing, field maintenance and other support personnel and to test new ideas or experiment with new things like types of grass seeds, drainage systems, etc.
Brian Oliver | 24-Oct-07 at 12:02 pm | Permalink
Always an option, I’m certain. And if Kasten adopts Atlanta’s methodology then it’s quite possible.
The big part is there has to be a seller as well. I have no idea if the Suns ownership (a Vegas conglomerate) is willing to sell them.
Wooden U. Lykteneau | 24-Oct-07 at 5:31 pm | Permalink
One can only hope that not only the Nationals would want to buy these teams but help get new stadia built in both cities. Pfitzner stadium is easily the worst high-A ballpark in the country and Municipal Stadium isn’t much better.
Tom | 24-Oct-07 at 9:45 pm | Permalink
Are you kidding? As bad as the Pfitz is the Municipal Stadium is much worse for both players and fans. Coming a close second to Hagerstown was Savannah.
Shawn | 25-Oct-07 at 3:13 pm | Permalink
Mandalay would definately sell the Suns.
They didnt want the team in Hagerstown to begin with.
They bought to move to Greenville SC when that market was opened,but another ownership group was selected instead.
That left them with a team/market that they didnt want.
Make them a reasonable offer and they will sell.
Louis J. | 25-Oct-07 at 6:21 pm | Permalink
Sounds like Hagerstown could be purchased! While we’re re-arranging, here are some other ideas. Keep the Rookie team in Florida (they need a year around warm base); but, Move #1, Vermont to Pulaski (vacant) of the App. League which would give the Nationals a fan base in Southwest Virginia not New England. If a player gets promoted, its a shorter drive to Hagerstown. Move #2, Potomac to Charlottesville which would stablize the Central Virginia base. Potomac fans read on-I didn’t abandon you! Move #3, see if Baltimore would like to leave Norfolk for Harrisburg (territories & fan bases are better situated) and turn the Harrisburg team to a AAA franchise. I know that Norfolk group has close ties w/ balltimore but the Harrisburg stadium is to be improved and the new owner will be promoting the Nationals prospects and the Nationals team right in Baltimore’s back yard. Not good for Baltimore. If Baltimore moves, Nationals can move their AA franchise to a new field in Prince William - Stafford County area (which can be used by the Nationals for rehab assignments and their AAA franchise to Norfolk which would bring in a vast Tidewater area base!!! Now, if we can move the Braves out of Richmond (sounds like a AA location?) I wonder if anybody from the Nationals is reading our postings !?!
Shawn | 25-Oct-07 at 7:46 pm | Permalink
I visited Pulaski in August.
The top person in charge of the facility let us on the field to goof around and gave us a tour of the whole facility.
At the time,the Nats were interested,but the person wrote me about a month ago to tell me that the Nationals had told them that they had decided against going there.
Too bad for Pulaski,that town has gotten screwed over big time by baseball after doing nothing more than going above and beyond the call of duty….
My pictures and report from Pulaski are on my blog in the August archive…
Suns Fan | 25-Oct-07 at 8:04 pm | Permalink
Word on the street was that Mandalay, disappointed about being stuck with an old stadium in Hagerstown, wants out. Whether that means selling, or moving the team is an open question. Where to? There’s not much there, other than Spartanburg, SC. Also of note is that the Suns signed an extension through 2009 as part of the deal to improve the infield. The rumor around here was that the Suns were going to move at the end of the 2008 season. Given the lease extension on the stadium, I think Mandalay wants to sell the team.
From a fan’s perspective, I think Municipal Stadium is great. All the seats are close to the field. It’s small, cozy and comfortable. It’s a really neat old stadium.
From the player’s point of view, it probably isn’t the best. The foul territory is very small, there isn’t a lot of room for the on-deck circle. The field is in bad shape, though that is slated to get better with the infield improvements. The outfield also needs to be resurfaced, but that will be more expensive, and will take longer to get approved.
From a business point of view, Municipal Stadium is not good. There’s a lack of parking. The parking lot only holds about 2/3 capacity for the stadium, if that. Verizon lets the Suns use their parking lot of night games, and that gives them about 50 extra spaces. There’s some parking available on near by streets. Still, the parking situation at Municipal Stadium is not good. The stadium also can’t really be totally renovated without buying out the trucking depot (and I think they’d be willing to sell) behind the third base stands. There’s pretty much no room for any additional seating at the stadium. And at 4,600 seats, the stadium is small for the South Atlantic League. They could expand the seats down the first base line, but that would mean building into the parking lot, and exacerbating the parking problem.
Also a major, major problem for any ownership group is the stadium’s complete lack of any luxury suites. They have the picnic porch, where corporate groups can gather. But it’s difficult for the Suns’ management to sell corporate sponsorships when there’s Frederick just down the road, which has modern–if anti-septic and boring–stadium with luxury boxes. To their credit, the Suns have lots of corporate partners. Still, they’re pitching at a big disadvantage on that.
There is an old power plant that is kitty corner from the stadium. It’s long since closed, and it’s in disrepair. It screams Superfund site. If they built a parking lot there, and bought out the trucking company they could do something like they did in Lynchburg, and completely rebuild the stadium. That might get local support here.
The problem with other development plans has been where to put the stadium? There’s not a lot of other areas that could generate support other than the southwest side of town, where the stadium is.
All this said, the Suns are still profitable. Contributing factors include the city-owned power, which reduces their electric bill, the corporate sponsorships that they do get, the food and merchandise that they sell, and their average gate, which while not the best, is pretty good at about 2,250 per game.
Mandalay would sell the Suns. But the question is, to whom? There’s always the Harrisburg model, but I seriously doubt the city council here would purchase a baseball team, even a profitable one. They prefer to get behind downtown concerts. Perhaps a group of local business people, but I think Mandalay has probably already approached them by now, and nothing happened.
What happens to the future of the Suns is probably dependent on how valuable having a near-by Sally League affiliate is to the Nationals. Is the inconvenience of Municipal Stadium, its outdated structure (the press box is literally a trailer atop the main grandstand), and poor location outweighed by having all the organization’s players centrally located? Is there another city within a 100 mile radius of Washington that would like–and could support–a minor league baseball team?
The Nationals themselves are probably the only entity that would be interested in purchasing the Suns. And with the right approach, they could probably make drastic improvements to Municipal Stadium, and get at least some city help (note to anybody that tries: guarantee that you’d let the Little League local teams play there once a year; Hagerstown loves its Little League).
But, even if the Nationals purchase the Suns, there are other options. Charlestown, WV might be a good candidate–easy train ride from D.C., and an area that, thanks to gambling, is pretty flush with cash. And there’s always Lancaster, which has a good stadium, and an Atlantic League team that currently occupies it.
It will be interesting to see what happens. I personally hope that the city can find a way to modernize Municipal Stadium, and keep the Suns in Hagerstown.
Wooden U. Lykteneau | 25-Oct-07 at 8:05 pm | Permalink
I don’t think the Nats would be stupid enough to abandon its foothold in Northern Virginia in favor of Central Virginia.
Suns Fan | 25-Oct-07 at 8:11 pm | Permalink
Of note: another site that could work in the future is the Washington County Hospital site, which is about two blocks from the stadium. The hospital is slated to close in 2009 I believe (moving to Robinwood Drive), and the city can’t figure out what to do with the land. The site is large enough for a baseball stadium, with plenty of parking. But I seriously doubt that’ll ever happen for a myriad of local political reasons. Still, it’s an idea worth considering.
Suns Fan | 25-Oct-07 at 8:19 pm | Permalink
Pulaski is an Appalachian League ballpark, and I believe that the Nationals were considering moving their GCL franchise there.
Shawn | 25-Oct-07 at 9:25 pm | Permalink
Considering this town’s Little League love affair and the makeup of the city council with pro-Little League members (Cromer and Parson in particular),using LL as a way to help funding could work.
But,they would rather use money to rehab LL complexes around town.
Of course this is a town with a newspaper that devotes more print space to a tournament game between West End and American than its only pro franchise,so one cannot expect much……
Louis J. | 25-Oct-07 at 10:23 pm | Permalink
Wooden U. Lykteneau
The Nationals foothold in Northern Virginia is not the Pnats but the Washington Nationals. The home of the Pnats is Woodbridge which is only about 20 miles away from the new stadium!
hoagie | 26-Oct-07 at 1:05 am | Permalink
Moving from Vermont to Pulaski would be a great idea…there are tons of college students (myself included) from Virginia Tech, Radford University, etc. who would love to see professional baseball. Not to mention the locals who need to be convinced that the Nats are a better home team to follow than the Braves. If MASN was on TV down here…that would be great.
But this is my best-case scenario:
AAA: Richmond (apparently they’re not on great terms with the Braves)
AA: keep them in Harrisburg
high A: Potomac
low A: Pulaski
Then keep the rookie/GCL teams in Florida.
Suns Fan | 26-Oct-07 at 1:31 am | Permalink
Let’s give the City Council some credit, they did actually contribute a fair amount of money (as did the County Commission) towards the infield project. For once, they did the right thing. Does anybody know the vote? I’d be curious to see if anyone voted against it.
But the Little League concept isn’t a bad one. If it’s a publicly financed stadium, it should be like a park on non-game dates. In other words, more than just the pro-team should get to use the field. That makes it a little easier for the politicians to support.
Still, I’m intrigued by the lease extension through 2009. It’s an interesting development, and I think a positive sign that the issue is being taken seriously by city, county, and regional leaders.
Suns Fan | 26-Oct-07 at 1:46 am | Permalink
By the vote, I mean the vote on the City Council’s $10,000 allocation towards the repairs.
Terry Byrom | 26-Oct-07 at 7:30 am | Permalink
Just FYI everyone,
The Harrisburg Senators aren’t not going to become AAA. The only way for Harrisburg to get a AAA team is for a team/franchise to move from an existing city. That’s not very likely since there aren’t any other floundering AAA teams looking to sell. For example, Norfolk would have to sell their franchise before they can be left with no team. Harrisburg just can’t get moved to the International League without the International League losing a franchise, it doesn’t work this way.
And for the sake of this conversation, a city can’t lose a franchise if they have ownership. Affiliates may change every two years, but at the end of the current contract, Hagerstown is gauranteed a team as long as they have ownership. It’s getting more and more difficult to have new teams in new cities. Just remember, we have territorial rights (I believe 50 miles) here in Harrisburg with any team at the AA level or below. It means that no team can come within 50 miles of Norfolk at AAA or below and no team within 50 miles of Potomac High A and below.
We have two more years on our affiliate contract with the Nationals, and I’m personally hoping, we continue with them since they are geographically close. We’ve been with the Expos/Nats since 1991, so I don’t see why to make a change now.
TB
Wooden U. Lykteneau | 26-Oct-07 at 9:18 am | Permalink
Louis J
Indeed, but if there is one clear trend in minor-league baseball, it’s that setting up shop near the parent club is the way to go…
Lowell / Boston
Brooklyn / New York (N)
Staten Island / New York (A)
Frederick / Baltimore
etc. etc.
But the important thing is that you don’t want to abandon a presence in/near one of the fastest growing parts of the country. It’s attractive to the parent club and to the owner of the affiliate. I suspect mightily that once the sticker shock of the new ballpark sets in, there will be many folks looking for an affordable alternative, compounded by the utter lack of parking and piss-poor public transportation options.
Louis J. | 26-Oct-07 at 9:59 am | Permalink
Wooden U. Lykteneau
I wasn’t suggesting leaving No. Va. I was suggesting to move the location to somewhere else in No. Va. and changing from an Advanced A to AA franchise. As for affordable tickets, how about all of those $5, $10 & $15 seats Stan Kasten keeps mentioning!!!
Suns Fan | 26-Oct-07 at 11:25 am | Permalink
The City of Hagerstown doesn’t own the Suns. As I understand it, Mandalay owns the South Atlantic League franchise that is based in Hagerstown. The South Atlantic League has its own rules regarding the relocation of teams, but there is probably no reason why Mandalay couldn’t try to move the team to another location. Of course, they can’t do that for 2008, as they have a contract with the Nationals. The rumor was that, at the end of the affiliate contract with the Nationals after the 2008 season, that they were going to move the team. But the lease extension they signed with the city calls for them to be here through 2009. All this leads me to believe that the Suns are for sale.
I thought you can take the Metro to the new ballpark in D.C.? Am I mistaken?
Suns Fan | 26-Oct-07 at 11:27 am | Permalink
$5 seats at the new park are a good deal. Heck, it’s $9 to sit in upper left field in Baltimore…
Freda | 26-Oct-07 at 1:27 pm | Permalink
Am I mistaken, or isn’t Pulaski a Rookie ball league whereas Vermont is a Class A - Short Season league? Why would the Nats want to have two rookie ball clubs (we already have the GCL and I don’t see them getting rid of that team). Vermont, Like Pulaski, is a college area that also loves its baseball, going all the way back to the Reds and the Mariners in 1983 and 1988 respectively. I am not against Pulaski having a Professional Baseball team, but don’t take it away from Vermont which has been supporting the team since 1994.
Brian Oliver | 26-Oct-07 at 1:29 pm | Permalink
Pulaski is comparable to the GCL team. I’m not advocating leaving Vermont but I could see the Nationals adopting a similar tact as Atlanta who has a GCL team and a Appy League team (where Pulaski is).
Louis J. | 26-Oct-07 at 3:26 pm | Permalink
Terry Byrom
I was able to catch your radio broadcast of the Harrisburg Senators in 2006 when I visited some friends. Too bad we don’t get it down here. BUT, I don’t understand some of your comments. First, I thought that the Harrisburg franchise was sold to a group headed by Michael Reinsdorf ($13.25M); therefore, its not owned by the city. The stipulation is that a team(not necessarily a AA team) must be left in Harrisburg for at least 29 years. Mr. Reinsdorf’s group and the group that owns Norfolk Tides can still swap/sell franchises accordingly. After the current ML affiliation agreements expire, Harrisburg can become the AAA affiliate of the Orioles and Norfolk can become the AAA affiliate of the Nationals. There would be no 50 mile territorial problem with this arrangement. The Columbus franchise may or may not continue. Won’t be the first time that cities have been abandoned. Jacksonville was the IL affiliate for the Mets before the Mets moved them to Norfolk and Jacksonville ceased to be a franchise. Next year, Ottawa will disappear as the Phillies move to a new location in Pennsylvania. Pulaski had a team in the App League and it doesn’t have any now. With Ottawa and Columbus available, another idea could be expansion! By the way, Richmond and Norfolk are dam close to that 50 mile territorial thing. Finally, the current owner of the Norfolk franchise also owns the Bowie and Frederick teams. Therefore, he would own an Orioles Class A, AA & AAA franchises, all a short distance from Angelos.
Finally, I don’t what your referring to about Hagerstown is owned by the city. As far as I know, Hagerstown(Las Vegas group) and Harrisburg (Reindorf group) are privately owned.
Louis J. | 26-Oct-07 at 3:36 pm | Permalink
Freda
Pulaski and Appy league are an advanced short season league similiar to New York-Penn League where Vermont plays. Vermont was selected when the Expos were located a short distance away in Montreal. Their support was dependent on how good the team was. The Nationals are now located a long distance from Vermont and this team can be better located to create a great fan base in SW Virginia. No body was concerned when Pulaski lost its team because the location was not right (Blue Jays franchise I believe). Let the BlueJays move into Vermont.
Louis J. | 26-Oct-07 at 4:01 pm | Permalink
Brian
Atlanta uses the Danville Braves (which they own) in the Appy League as their Low Class A Short Season affiliate similiar to the Nationals using the Vermont LakeMonsters as their Low Class A Short Season affiliate in the New York-Penn League. And, I am advocating that they move the team to Pulaski- and I don’t live in Pulaski.
Shawn | 26-Oct-07 at 4:31 pm | Permalink
All Appalachian League teams are owned by the Major League club.
That is a rule for all Rookie league level teams.
From what I was told by Pulaski,the Blue Jays told them that they wanted to reduce their minor system from 6 teams to 5 and then once they screwed Pulaski began their GCL program.
Wooden U. Lykteneau | 26-Oct-07 at 8:58 pm | Permalink
Louis J
I’m with you for keeping a Nats affiliate in No. Va. and building a new, AA-level stadium. I don’t much care as long as there’s some professional baseball to be had there continously, but preferably with the Nats.
The Pfitz is a relic from when you could get away with (Northern US) h.s.-quality baseball fields. And I sense you agree with me that the $5 seats in the new stadium will always be “sold out” (read: given away) and the $10 seats will be impossible to get except in person on game day.
None of that changes how bad the parking is. I’d love to be proven wrong on this, but I’m still not seeing anything that makes me think this will be better than RFK, which is horrible.
Suns Fan | 26-Oct-07 at 10:11 pm | Permalink
Depends. New stadiums wear off. Tickets were plentiful in Pittsburgh less than two months after they opened their new stadium. Camden Yards was once sold out, and it was impossible to find tickets there. I went to a game there in late September. It was a ghost town–even of $8 upper reserved night, they had a Sunseque crowd (read: 5,000 actually there, if that). The Nats drew well in 2005, but the attendance has dropped since then.
Heck, even in San Francisco (the complete model of a new stadium), I found 3 $10 seats to a game in the middle of a summer I spent there the year the park opened.
I think it’s a fallacy to assume the new park is going to be sold out for every game. Doubtful. I think they average 27,000, which is OK.
Terry Byrom | 27-Oct-07 at 8:26 am | Permalink
Louis,
I’m not speaking of city ownership, I’m speaking of ownership period. If there is an owner for a city, that city can’t lose their team by an affiliation change. Of course owners can opt to move teams.
You say, why not just move the AAA affiliation from Norfolk to Harrisburg? Okay, where is the AA going to move within the Eastern League? What’s happening to the ownership group in Norfolk? If all they do is lose the Nationals affiliation, like they lost the Mets, they still get a AAA team.
Columbus is building a new stadium, they aren’t losing their franchise either.
A major league team simply signs a PDA with a minor league franchise, they don’t control where those teams move (unless they own them i.e. Springfield Cardinals).
We aren’t going to be AAA. We are in the Eastern League and that is likely not going to change. IF it was going to change, it would have happened when Ottawa was going to lose their franchise.
The ONLY way a current AAA city/franchise can lose having some AAA team is for that ownership to sell the franchise. Norfolk would have to be completely out of the baseball business for them to lose their AAA franchise.
You are confusing moving affiliations with moving teams. And when I refer to a team in a city, I’m not referring to a “city” owning the team.
Louis if you and I own the Norfolk franchise and the Nationals come to us in two years to say, we don’t want to be there any longer. Louis, we don’t lose being a AAA in the International League, we simply won’t be a Nationals affiliate any longer, just like what took place when they went from being the Mets to being the Orioles.
So far as I know, none of the teams in the International League are in trouble and thinking about leaving the International League which means Harrisburg is staying AA.
As for Hagerstown, there are always rumors about teams being moved, but with territorial rules, it makes it VERY difficult. For example, Mandalay owns the team in Erie and has been actively trying to move it for several years, but where is that team still at, Erie. There haven’t been many franchise moves in the past few years, it’s just getting harder and harder.
Louis, my email is tbyrom@senatorsbaseball.com and there are probably some links I can provide you that explains the PDA etc. better than I have here.
Suns Fan | 27-Oct-07 at 11:20 am | Permalink
Does Hagerstown/Frederick have an exemption on the territorial rules? The two teams are less than 30 miles from each other. IF, and I know this will NEVER happen, the two teams were in the same league and could play each other, it’d probably help the attendance of both team. If Mandalay wanted to relocated the Suns within the Hagerstown region (Charlestown, Martinsburg in WV or Chambersburg in PA) would they run into territorial problems?
On the one hand, it kind of isn’t fair to ownership. But on the other, it’s hard to feel bad for a profitable venture.
Tom | 28-Oct-07 at 5:32 pm | Permalink
The only move that could make sense is Mandalay moving the team from Hagerstown to Charlottesville or selling to a Charlotteville ownership group. It get them closer to their SALLY League southern division teams.
They could probably work out some arrangement with UVA to share a field.
Anyone got $15 mil to buy a team?
Suns Fan | 28-Oct-07 at 10:36 pm | Permalink
Is Charlotsville within 50 miles of Potomac? If it is, it’s within the PNats’ territory.
I’ve read that low A franchises are valued at far less than the 15 million AAA teams go for. Heck, the Portland Beavers (AAA) went for $7 million last year. I think it’s probably more like $2-4 million for a team like the Suns, maybe less.
Suns Fan | 28-Oct-07 at 10:37 pm | Permalink
Also, the Sally Northern Division doesn’t quite work without a team to be a stop over point between the rest of the league, and Lake County. Hagerstown is the ideal stop over point from the League’s point of view (shortens what would otherwise be 18 hour bus trips).
Shawn | 28-Oct-07 at 10:38 pm | Permalink
The SAL really would like Hagerstown to stay in this general area.
That gives road teams a stop for teams going to Lakewood and/or Delmarva.
I can see the team going to a city(Chambersburg PA or Martinsburg WV) in the area,but not a long move for just that reason.
Suns Fan | 29-Oct-07 at 12:07 pm | Permalink
Martinsburg/Jefferson County WV would be a leading candidate. They have the cash down there (slots) to fund a stadium. I don’t think Chambersburg has as much cash. Though Hagerstown might be willing to completely redo Municipal Stadium; depends on the political climate. Hagerstown is also a good road stop over on the way to Lake County, which otherwise would be at least a 12 hour bus ride for everybody, and more like 16 for most…